Was Mary Boleyn really as “lewd” as she’s made out to be in portrayals? I don’t feel comfortable using that word but I’ve seen portrayals both in fiction and non fiction that mostly highlight that she slept around and I wanted your input on that.

No, I definitely get what you mean, because often her character is made out to be that way– in Tudors we have a scene where she’s telling Mark Smeaton that her “boring husband” has just dropped dead, and how excited she is to now have a one-night stand…while Perdita Weeks’ incredible delivery and scene where she asks Cromwell to intercede with her sister for financial assistance, and quotes a historically accurate letter she sent him was cut from final editing:

But, y’know, obviously the first one was more important. 

Keeping the scenes they did– the explicit one with Henry in Season 1, and the one just mentioned, while cutting the one above– about as transparent as Rihanna’s CFDA dress, with none of its class. 

But I digress…truthfully, we don’t even really know if the rumor that she was the mistress of Francis I is true.  Claire Ridgway goes over the sources in the article I just linked, and explains how some slander against Anne has actually been misattributed to Mary, much in the way a much-cited quote about Elizabeth Blount has been misattributed to being about Mary Boleyn. 

Would Mary have been able to make such a good marriage to up-and-coming courtier William Carey if she had a well-known reputation of promiscuity? Frankly, I doubt it; although I suppose it’s not impossible. 

It’s assumed she did, also, because she seemed to have a falling-out with her father, Thomas Boleyn. But this could have had many causes. 

All we know for certain is that Mary had sex with three men in her lifetime: her first husband, Henry VIII, and her second husband. 

So little is known about the second, most famous one, and mostly gaps have been filled with our imaginations. Frankly, all we know is that they hooked up, at least once, in some fashion, at some point. It could have happened before she was married. It could have happened while she was married, but I wouldn’t get all moralistic about it if did– because Henry was, too. 

That “the whole court knew” she was his mistress is a fable, because the only reason even we know is the dispensation Henry VIII asked for. That she was his mistress for as long as Bessie Blount was, that she also had at least one illegitimate child with his paternity, is also imaginations filling the gaps– quite simply, there’s not evidence that proves this or even proves this likely. 

But I digress. I would say, no, don’t believe the hype of book titles such as “The Boleyn Women: The Tudor Femmes Fatales Who Changed English History”. 

Elizabeth Boleyn was not a “femme fatale”– she only had sex with her husband. Mary Boleyn was not a “femme fatale”, as having sex with one’s husband wasn’t especially promiscuous even by 16th century standards. William Carey didn’t die from sex with Mary, he died of the Sweat. 

I wouldn’t refer to Mary Boleyn as a “femme fatale” for having sex with Henry VIII– it’s not as if she killed him, either. 

Nor would I refer to Anne Boleyn as a femme fatale, as she, like her mother, only ever had sex with the man she married. And the men that were executed along with her in May 1536 didn’t “die because she had seduced them”, while Anne had the last laugh and survivedand that’s the linchpin of the whole femme fatale trope in the first place. 

Finally got around to watching Lucy worsleys six wives and she called Anne Boleyn the “original other woman” as if no man had ever had an affair before that moment in time lmao

Hm, I don’t remember the context for it (if she was saying that has been the perception of her ever since, or if she was saying it is a declaration), but I do remember finding her take on Anne rather…anemic…and lackluster.

As far as the wives “as you’ve never seen them before” (iirc the tagline/ hook was something like that), I mean…no? Not really? I definitely didn’t watch it feeling like “I’ve never seen them presented in this way before!” There weren’t really any dimensions added, imo.  

All this discussion of dumb things people say about Anne’s downfall has actually reminded me, do you think Anne’s birthdate was 1501 or 1507?

I think 1507 or possibly actually somewhere in between those two dates. 

It’s too weird to me that no one made the criticism (but made every single other one) that she was possibly too old for childbearing during the Queen-Consort-in-Waiting period (1527-33). I could totally be wrong tho! ❤

Re: “Anne was stupid to stake everything and lose” — didn’t just about every queen consort “stake everything” on the chances of having a son? Obviously not all of them were risking what Anne risked, but the consequences — annulment, divorce, banishment, soured relations between home countries — were still dire, if not as unprecedented as execution.

I don’t know if I would say “stake everything”. The consequences could certainly be dire for foreign royal consorts as well, sure…but they weren’t usually “everything”. 

To have a son was, to use an anachronistic term, a vital part of the “job description” of Queen Consort. More so than being loved, although that certainly helped (people often mention that ambassadorial account of COA being well-loved by the English people with a tone of “how could he ever thought of annulling the marriage”– but their love of the Queen in no way guaranteed there wouldn’t be a civil war in the event of no male heir). But she wouldn’t have expected to be executed for failing to meet it (although I’m not of the mind it was the sole cause of her downfall; rather just one on a list of contributing factors that made her more vulnerable); at most I suppose she might have feared being placed in lodgings far from the main court, as COA had been. 

And she wouldn’t have expected to not be able to. Childbirth could be dire, too, but her closest female relatives– her mother, and sister– had survived it with only a few miscarriages. Both had sons, and Anne was young– realistically, she probably expected she’d be able to do the same. 

I think she had a better, more sharp take on how long exactly things could stall re: the annulment of Henry’s first marriage, though– he seems like he was more hopeful about it. I don’t think she believed it would take six years, though. 

Kinda playing off the “Anne played the game and lost” thing. A lot of the time it seems like her downfall is spoken of like “haha she was so stupid to stake everything on having a son lmao.” Like….hindsight is 20/20 my guy. They look at it like she just should’ve *known* when there was no reason on earth for her to doubt her child-bearing ability in say 1530. She came from some fertile families so there was no reason for Henry to doubt either. Sorry if this is incoherent, I’m so tired.

1530, 1527….people really forget that literally very few thought the ‘Great Matter’ was going to drag out that long, ultimately fruitlessly (unless we count the Anglican Schism as fruit, lmao). Kings had certainly been able to get annulments before; and nothing on equal footing to the Sack of Rome had happened before either (it was viewed as the “end of the Renaissance”).  Henry promised her in a letter their “matter” would come to pass, soon (sometime around 1528)– that’s part of why I’ve always loved the line “Promises are easy” (Tudors) so much.

But yeah the ultimate She Should Have Known…hadn’t she read TOBG??? :/